AMY GOODMAN: Medea Benjamin, in your recent book on Ukraine, you wrote, “In May, after the U.K.’s Johnson and U.S.’s Austin delivered their message to Zelensky in April to keep fighting for the long run, the U.S. Congress passed an enormous $40 billion aid package to help Ukraine militarily and economically to fight a long war. Not a single Democrat opposed the bill, including Senator Bernie Sanders and the most progressive House Democrats, although 11 Republican senators and 57 House Republicans voted against it,” you said. There’s also discussion that this moment that President Biden and President Zelensky have seized for Zelensky’s joint session of Congress address is right before the House changes hands to Republicans, because a number of Republicans — not clear if the House speaker will be McCarthy — are demanding that this money and weapons flow stop. How do you feel as a progressive antiwar activist — two things — being allied with far-right Republicans and, secondly, being called by some a Russian apologist?

MEDEA BENJAMIN: I feel that if I were in Russia, I would be in jail for protesting this war. I also feel terrible that my congresspeople in the Progressive Caucus were cowed and silenced. I think the 30 who signed on that letter, in their heart of hearts, probably believe that negotiations is the only way. And we have to pressure them more to come out and say that their original stance was right, just as Congressman Ro Khanna stood by that stance on national television and CNN and got tremendous support for it. We in the Peace in Ukraine Coalition have been putting pressure on those 30 congresspeople to come back out and say, “Yes, negotiations is the right thing. Yes, a Christmas truce would be a wonderful thing.” So, it’s our job to put the pressure on our members of Congress, whether they’re Republican or Democrat, to come out with the only rational position right now.

The U.S., unfortunately, and the Biden administration, has been against negotiations, nixed the negotiations that were going on in late March, early April, and told the Ukrainians, basically, “You don’t have to negotiate, because we’re going to keep pouring more weapons in.” This is only helping the weapons companies, who actually were the sponsors of a reception at the Ukrainian Embassy in Washington, D.C., on December 8th, brought to you by Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman and Raytheon. They are the ones who are getting rich in this. The Ukrainians are suffering. The whole world is suffering from this. And we have to get Congress — all of Congress — to recognize this is not in the best interest of the American people or of the entire world.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to put that same question to Cornel West: where you find yourself on the spectrum, and those that say a negotiated settlement now only serves Vladimir Putin, and Zelensky’s push right now is to not only hold ground, but to, with a Patriot missile system, go on the offensive. He says it’s the only way to win this war.

CORNEL WEST: Well, I mean, I think Sister Medea’s point that you’ve got 14,000 courageous Russian brothers and sisters who were willing to go to jail for seven years in order to have some accountability of the gangster who runs their empire, Russia, we need to have an equivalent antiwar movement in the American empire that’s willing to put pressure on our political elites. Most of our political elites and in Congress suffer from a moral and spiritual bankruptcy, because they can’t say a mumbling word when it comes to what’s really happening on the ground with the heroic struggles in Iran right now. They can’t say a mumbling word about the Palestinian struggles, what’s been going on for the last 50 years. But all of a sudden they’re willing to breakdance and act as if they’re concerned about domination when it comes to Ukraine.

So we want to be consistent. We want to support any people who are dominated, whether they are Dalits in neofascist India, whether they’re landless peasants in Brazil, whether they’re Black people and working people in America, whether they’re workers in the UC, University of California, system. And not a mumbling word from Democrats like the governor, caving. We want moral consistency. That’s what Martin King was calling for. That’s what Dorothy Day was calling for. That’s what Rabbi Heschel was calling for in the ’60s. That’s our legacy. And what that means is, we’re going to cut against all the grains in the name of truth, in the name also, we hope, of justice and even some beauty.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to ask you about the split on the left, Professor West. Some on the left have emphasized the history of U.S. hostility to Russia in the region, including pushing NATO expansion. You have people like the CIA Director William Burns, who in the past was fiercely critical of the U.S. pushing to expand NATO. And many say the U.S. now has no right to criticize Russia, which, according to this logic, is defending its sphere of influence. However, others on the left have insisted that imperialism must be opposed in all its ugly forms, whether it’s U.S. imperialism or Russian imperialism against the deeply suffering Ukrainian people. Where do you stand on this?

CORNEL WEST: I stand on the highest moral ground I can gain access to, which is in opposition to imperialism, be it China, be it India, be it America, be it Britain, be it France, be it Russia. Across the board, our anti-imperialism must be consistent. I was thinking of my dear sister Charlene Mitchell, who I had such great respect for. We didn’t always agree, but she was a long-distance runner, and she attempted to be consistent in her critiques of predatory forms of capitalism. And I resonate with that. But we need more Medea Benjamins, we need more Brother Haglers, and we need more Amy Goodmans in the world, let me tell you that.

AMY GOODMAN: But if you can talk more about what should happen in Ukraine right now? I mean, you also have been extremely critical of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

CORNEL WEST: Absolutely.

AMY GOODMAN: You have millions of Ukrainians fleeing right now. Some say that President Putin wants this to happen because it will turn Europe against Ukraine because they can’t deal with the flow of refugees.

CORNEL WEST: Well, we need to have a truce. That’s the first step. This is a process. This is stage by stage, moment by moment, to have a truce and then to put pressure on both ruling classes, across the board, put pressure on the power elites in both empires, across the board, and then have a moral and spiritual and political galvanizing of the people from below, because if it’s dependent solely on the voices of the power elites, it’s not going to happen.

AMY GOODMAN: How does a truce lead to a ceasefire, Cornel West?

CORNEL WEST: Well, one, it allows us to view the world through the lens of peace rather than war. It allows us to assume that there can be not just major interruptions in the process of war, but maybe those interruptions can become more chronic. And as they become more chronic, we have peaceful ways of dealing with the various forms of death and dogma and domination that are shot through the history of the species. And all we have is actually these utopian projects of trying to create some spaces in which people are not at each other’s throats.

So, that’s what truces do. They provide not just moments, but different lens through which we view the world. I think that’s what Brother Hagler was saying with such eloquence, and that’s what Medea Benjamin has been talking about all her life, or at least her political life. I don’t think she came out of the womb talking that way, but, I mean …

AMY GOODMAN: And if you can address that split, Medea Benjamin, something you have also been dealing with, progressives talking about supporting Ukraine at all costs because of the imperialistic invasion by Russia of Ukraine, and then seeing this war not only as it is but possibly escalating to a global conflagration, or even if it doesn’t lead to nuclear war?

MEDEA BENJAMIN: I’ve been going around the country with my colleague Nicolas Davies on a 50-city tour, and we find that audiences come in with very different views. I asked them, “How many of you are confused about this?” And just about everybody raised their hand. We have good discussions, and people leave with a much deeper understanding that this war didn’t just fall from the sky, that there are contexts to understand and that there is not a military victory. And then they go out excited to do something about it. We have entire states that are mobilizing statewide coalitions to put the pressure on their elected officials.

I think this is what happens to us when wars start. In the beginning of the Iraq War, we were also told that we were Saddam Hussein supporters. People will come around to our side as this war drags on and more and more people get killed and we become closer and closer to this nuclear Armageddon that President Biden mentioned. So, I feel confident that we’re are on the right side of history. I hope more people will come over to our side more quickly, join us in the PeaceInUkraine.org coalition.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to leave it there, but, of course, we’ll continue to cover what’s taking place in Ukraine. Medea Benjamin of CodePink, co-author of the new book, War in Ukraine: Making Sense of a Senseless Conflict; Reverend Graylan Hagler, adviser to the Fellowship of Reconciliation, speaking to us from Washington; and professor Cornel West of the Union Theological Seminary, speaking to us from Irvine, California.

Coming up, we look at the latest documents released by the House January 6th committee, now expected to release its full report on the Capitol insurrection today. Stay with us.”